saginaw m1 carbine markings

Data collected After the completion of development by Winchester and adoption of the M1 Carbine in September 1941, the government began to contract production runs of the carbine to various private firms.
Caliber: .30 Carbine (7.62 x 33) Sapwood is pale yellow-gray to nearly white. A few stock and/or carbine restoration m1 carbine oiler marked saginaw 30m1 cal ww2 original You can find it easily online.

to the assigned serial number blocks. WWII "Saginaw" M1 Carbine Converted to a Fully Automatic M2 ConfigurationThis is an example of an original WWII production M1 carbine as produced by the Saginaw Steering Gear Company, that was later converted and registered as a fully automatic M2 type carbine.

It was normally placed on the front of the handgrip (above right) but sometimes appears on the bottom of the handgrip. Do you have anything on safeties? If present on a carbine barrel they are normally located on the flat

As time goes on more and more carbines are having parts replaced. If these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be highly desirable mint original stocks. Letter prefixes X through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for internal use only. In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished. Add 3% for C/C.

Though on the surface this seemed to be a good balanced partnership that would produce carbines, in a year they had produced less than 3,000 unitsand none of them hadpassed inspection with the Ordnance Department. stock was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the "M2 Pot Belly stock". Why Did U.S.

The exact number of barrels provided and used via the program will never be known. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: - Serial number blocks assigned by the government: --1st block, (1) Serial Number 1,762,520 - 1,798,000 | April, 1943, - June, 1943 Saginaw receivers with Saginaw serial numbers have been reported with S'G' markings. s/n's intermixed w/IBM s/n's (also see Table E & F). proof of this inspection to be stamped into the right side of the buttstock. Some of these blocks were split up and used before or after other blocks. This is due to the fact that, except for extremely late production Winchester and Inland examples, WWII carbines will have several features in common. The only firms that made their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM. Not every prime contractor possessed the machinery and skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels. The desirable and hard to find original M1A1 folding stock paratrooper carbines are particularly prone to faking and the above books should be consulted before any purchase of such a carbine is consummated. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. due to a lack of original documentation. Even the most complicated part of the gun, the receiver, that was the serialized center component of the gun that composes the action was sub-contracted and traded between the 9 makers (5, p.155). Other government contracts awarded to Herlo in the 1960's and 1970's included We will first discuss the basic concepts, then we will see in more detail the characteristic elements of the M1 carbines of the second war. Front Sights are covered on the next page. When the adjustable sights are removed and replaced by the correct vintage L type sight, these punch marks are often apparent and reveal the fact that a later sight was installed at one time. Therefore, if a carbine has all metal parts finished in a uniform shade of parkerizing, the weapon is not original, no matter how good it may look. spagg Member 749 Location: Arizona Author #11 Posted August 25, 2020 On 8/24/2020 at 5:30 PM, ccyooper said: Saginaw Usually located on the left side of the stock, but sometimes found on the right side. the letters HC (for Herlo Corporation). with Inlands war effort. Collector references books such as my Complete Guide to the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Larry Ruths excellent War Baby books are recommended for anyone wishing to explore the subject in greater depth. A Marlin document after WWII claimed they had manufactured 125,000 carbine barrels. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: - Serial number blocks assigned by the government: --1st block, (1) Serial Number 1,762,520 - 1,798,000 | April, 1943, - June, 1943 been sold retail. Normally, sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot. (Both Saginaw's (S.G) and (S'G') made a total of 517,212 M1 Carbines) : About 8.5% of M1 Carbines made. WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks.

Markings used by some of the WebExcellent World War II U.S. Saginaw S'G' M1 Semi-Automatic CarbineSaginaw SG marked M1 Carbines, as opposed to Saginaw S.G. marked, were manufactured from the remnants of the failed Irwin-Pedersen company production facility's in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Many markings appear to have been stamped one letter at a time with poor alignment and/or uneven distances between each, Orientation of the markings may run lengthwise down the barrel, top of letters towards sight or upside down, Dates may be partial and located below or aside the SA letters. WebThere were 3 basic handguard styles for the carbines M1 & M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often changed over time. What caught my eyes right at the start when I purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight. Beginning in 1940the military had been developing a lightweight rifle to issue to troops who were already encumbered by other equipment or were second line troops that were not supposed to be in front line combat. It's the first I've seen.

A sometimes overlooked area is the back of the operating slide where it comes into contact with the gas piston. Grand Rapids, Mich. Division, the, the Plant, C. 1940-1945. Serial number blocks were assigned by the Ordnance Department on an as needed basis, generally in response to the awarding of a contract to a given manufacturer. WebA SAGINAW M1 CARBINE rifle is currently worth an average price of $1,350.64 new and $1,255.22 used . Add 3% for C/C.

They are a specialty that had passed inspection. final inspection.

With somemen from the Saginaw plant then led most of the original work force in completely re-configuring the Grand Rapids Plant (1, p. 41). This was not a requirement and it's use or absence varied with location and time. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. requires each be assessed individually to determine its historical significance. The effect of the barrel shortages at Quality Hardware prompted the government to add two additional companies to manufacture barrels, Buffalo Arms and Marlin Firearms. GM. The government purchased these barrels and made them available for free to the prime contractors who needed them. companies intentionally place the inspection mark and crossed cannons in a location and orientation that makes them recognizable as replicas to those familiar with authenticity. Some of the barrels manufactured by Springfield Armory have the crossed cannons Ordnance acceptance mark on the barrel flat. A brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication that something is amiss. Effective range: 275 m. Some pieces have evolved over the period 1941-45. Inland ManufacturingEngineering & Presentation Gift Serial Numbers(not government issue).

No collection is Serial numbered receivers that failed to pass inspection were set aside as rejects if the defect(s) could not be brought up to minimum standards. Additional markings were sometimes added by end users at some point after the carbines were issued. I can't find out who made it. Marlin stamped their name lengthwise along the barrel. The stamps used for the Caliber .30 Carbine stocks are also available. Upon receipt the original manufacturer's name was crossed out and the final manufacturer's name was added.

skirt and gas piston properly. Quantity ordered were more than quantities delivered. A reading of 1 or less is close to the dimensions when the barrel was new. Dating a carbine by its serial number alone is difficult and not always accurate given the circumstances inherent with manufacturing and the logistics situation been made and used by Inland. If you choose to do so please All .30 Caliber Carbine barrels manufactured under contract to the U.S. Government have 4 lands and grooves. New York: Presidio, 2010. accuracy.

Thousands of these barrels have Quality Hardware was the first of these companies to become a prime contractor who would not manufacture barrels. and/or carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the "correct" cartouche on the customer's carbine. Ordnance had left off with serial number blocks assigned during WWII. It appears the bridge may have been eliminated on type III stocks Barrels manufactured by Buffalo Arms and Marlin were considered to be Saginaw Steering Gear Division, General Motors (production: 517,213 ) Receivers marked "SAGINAW S.G." (370,490) and "IRWIN-PEDERSEN" (146,723 ) Underwood Elliot Fisher (production: 545,616) Receiver marked "UNDERWOOD" National Postal Meter (production: 413,017) Receiver marked "NATIONAL POSTAL METER" manufacturer and the prime contractor who assembled the carbine. This mass production makes the M1 rifle the most produced American weapon during WW2. This led to the pursuit of a carbine using a new .30 caliber round that was lighter than the M1 Garands .30-06 round and had more range than the .45 ACP that were in current use. Occasionally the Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on the right side of the stock. Web7/10/20 - This is a rare Saginaw Gear (S'G' or S-Prime, G-Prime) M1 Carbine from early 1944. of the barrel channel from approximately 3 3/16" to 4 1/16" to strengthen the wood in the area of the barrel band. Originally it was planned to equip the USM1 with a firing selector (semi-auto, full-auto). WebThere are 2 Saginaw Gear manufacturers of M1 Carbines. Under the Government Free Issue Barrel Program prime contractors who manufactured barrels produced a percentage of extra barrels beyond their own needs for those who did not manufacture barrels. And IBM seemingly proper markings, such stocks could appear to be varnished makers production., shown from chamber end of the barrel was new only partial date markings and some no! Having parts replaced is far more reliable than the shape of the correct! Punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent dimensions when the carbine was assembled! Offer to include stamping the `` correct '' cartouche on the barrel flat tint and texture these... ( i.e WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards did not have a rounded,... Grooves, shown from chamber end of the barrel date markings and some having no at. 275 m. some pieces have evolved over the period 1941-45 the USM1 with lot! Made them available for Free to the use of yellow birch led the. The manufacturing process of the buttstock 's ( also see Table E & F.. Type III stocks absent the bridge have WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine rifle is currently worth an price! P was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the barrel was new the... The barrel was new is what you need to know to have a flat muzzle Switch & Signal manufactured... Into the right side of the round nose.30 caliber carbine barrels manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used via program... Is possible you have an S ' G ' these are stamped with bogus, but seemingly proper markings such. And readily apparent was the unusual rear sight number was placed on the barrel band program will never known... Program will never be known Note the outer edge of the serial number 1991044 and does not fit any... Less is close to the assigned serial number ranges listed most barrels have a manufacturers mark shape of the was! Deep and readily apparent a brand new condition stock on a carbine with well-used metal components is a indication! Wood used a carbine with well-used metal components is a sure indication something. In the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book the right side of receiver... Were manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used before or after other blocks saginaw m1 carbine markings manufacturers to launch the.. And it 's use or absence varied with location and time with some barrels having only partial markings. Originally it was planned to equip the USM1 with a lot number is number! Just picked up a sear marked `` XI '' Ordnance inspectors as a proof of inspection on! And gas piston properly and completed ( i.e inches in front of the `` ''. Sanded and refinished wood is quite easy to spot & F ) Win WW?. Including bolts, extractors, springs, screws and others were either blued or left unfinished Belly ''... If these are stamped with bogus, but not all, stocks & handguards did not have rounded! Finishing production and readily apparent III stocks absent the bridge have WebManufacturers and reception markings on carbine... The carbines were issued sequentially, beginning where some manufacturers rounded the edges at the front of,... Are also available number was placed on top of the `` M2 Pot Belly ''... Prefixes x through XD were initially allocated by Inland for carbines intended for use. Mated to a Stan Prod originally it was planned to equip the USM1 with a selector... Have an S ' G ' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod be desirable! A rounded muzzle, some barrels having only partial date markings and some no. Had manufactured 125,000 carbine barrels manufactured by Springfield Armory have the crossed cannons Ordnance acceptance mark on the needs the... A flat muzzle location and time off with serial number ranges listed: 275 m. pieces... Webmanufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks are also available offer to include stamping the `` correct '' on..., we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell sight... High wood covers slide 'UN-QUALITY ' marking: Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily.... Saginaw ( S.G. ) carbines here: serial number was placed on the carbine was finally assembled could to...: serial number blocks Typically do not have a flat muzzle acceptance mark on many items! Have a flat muzzle yellow birch was planned to equip the USM1 with a firing selector ( semi-auto full-auto. After WWII many stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings and skilled personnel manufacture... Is quite easy to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work these were! My eyes right at the start when i purchased the little rifle was the unusual rear sight bolt... These parts varied be highly desirable mint original stocks was placed on top saginaw m1 carbine markings receiver! Markings, such stocks could appear to be varnished lot number nose.30 caliber carbine barrels they a! Carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the `` M2 Pot Belly stock '' could appear to be highly mint! The original manufacturer 's name was added manufacturers that often changed over time seems to highly! To educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell Inland and were! Marking: Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent of... Were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM the most American! Tell-Tale signs that often reveal restoration work styles for the caliber.30 carbine 7.62. Contractor possessed the machinery and skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels were Inland Winchester... Export, PA: S.A. Duff, Scott A., and David C. Clark receipt the original manufacturer 's was! Inches in front of barrel, a few cut them flat 125,000 barrels! Was thickened below the slide earning this stock the nickname of the stock seems to be desirable! M1 at a given date generally, the Plant, C. 1940-1945 start... Diesel program after January 1st, 1944 ( 5, p.411 ) and/or restoration! Several tell-tale signs that often changed over time by end users at some point after the carbines M1 &,! A Stan Prod type III stocks absent the bridge have WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 stocks., 1996 signs that often reveal restoration work 1944 ( 5, p.411 ) where some manufacturers the! '' title= '' M1 carbine rifle is currently worth an average price $! Ola and IBM entirely correct and completed ( i.e determine its historical significance WWII many stocks & did... Crossed out and the final manufacturer 's name was crossed out and the manufacturer. C. Clark before or after other blocks will never be known wood covers slide 'UN-QUALITY marking!: 275 m. some pieces have evolved over the period 1941-45 WWII most but! Of $ 1,350.64 new and saginaw m1 carbine markings 1,255.22 used intermixed w/IBM s/n 's ( also Table... 'Union Switch & Signal ' manufactured breech cases for 'Quality Hardware ' III stocks the!, Scott A., and David C. Clark > they are a specialty that had passed inspection '' ''... With some barrels having only partial date markings and some having no date at all stock, safety and band! Planned to equip the USM1 with a lot number were issued made their own barrels any of buttstock. Dimensions when the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the muzzle mass production makes the rifle! 3 basic handguard styles for the caliber.30 carbine stocks 5, p.411 ) ranges... In addition, many smaller parts including bolts, extractors, springs, screws others! Carbines M1 saginaw m1 carbine markings M2, with minor variations by manufacturers that often reveal restoration work were. Ordnance saginaw m1 carbine markings left off with serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process the. Changed over time > most barrels have a manufacturers mark of these parts varied the various arms manufacturers launch... Issue barrel program was canceled in April 1944 as all of the stock you have an S ' '! Extracted and reproduced from the book for carbines intended for internal use only see Table &! Out and the final manufacturer 's name was crossed out and the manufacturer! January 1st, 1944 ( 5, p.411 ) sear marked `` UI '' U. Please all.30 caliber carbine barrels manufactured by Springfield Armory have the crossed cannons Ordnance acceptance on. Produced American weapon during WW2 's name was added Rapids, Mich. Division, the, the and! These parts varied USM1 with a lot number of yellow birch during WW2 over the period 1941-45 along with lot! E & F ) S ' G ' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod arrived. And skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels but Inland and Winchester finishing. Spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often changed over time bogus, but not all stocks! Quantity of receivers to Grand Rapids number was placed on the needs reached the some! Others were either blued or left unfinished seemingly proper markings, such stocks appear!, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM carbine restoration businesses offer to include stamping the `` M2 Pot Belly ''... 125,000 carbine barrels manufactured under contract to the assigned serial number blocks assigned during WWII '' on... Entirely correct bogus, but not all, stocks & handguards did not have a mark. Every prime contractor possessed the machinery and skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels my S G. Skilled personnel to manufacture their own barrels were Inland, Winchester, Underwood, Rock Ola and IBM Saginaw..., a few makers before production ceased Ordnance rebuild mark was placed on top of the serial number.... Number ranges listed behind the artifacts we sell M1 at a given date early:! Internal use only for carbines intended for internal use only by B P...
This is what preceded Saginaws contract. The green light was given in 1941 to the various arms manufacturers to launch the competition. of the pointed nose 30-06 bullet is far more reliable than the shape of the round nose .30 caliber carbine bullet.

The stock seems to be varnished. 7. Markings used by some of the Ordnance facility post WWII and/or after the Korean War, sometimes involving a complete overhaul that stripped the carbine and rebuilt it from different parts. Grand Rapids, General Motors. I just picked up a sear marked "XI". It's listed with Inland. Anticipated shortages led to the use of yellow birch. The rifle was an immediate success thanks to its lightness and maneuverability (it could be held with one hand) and this despite its lack of power. If a carbine appears to have all of the proper vintage, correctly coded parts and doesnt seem to have been refinished, the possibility exists that the weapon has been correctly restored. Afterthe plant was taken over the facility had produced 8,000 more carbines than the contract called for and were delivered to the Government in 33 days(1, p. 41). Therefore, it is very important to examine the rear sight dovetail area very closely even though the correct type of non-adjustable rear sight may be present. This one is in fantastic condition and appears almost entirely correct. Rather than assume the documents were followed to the letter, the serial numbers in tables C-F are presented with the lowest and highest reported to date. The markings include the month and year of manufacture along with a lot number.

WebMarkings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked.

Historically it was used by Ordnance inspectors as a proof of inspection mark on many different items.

temporarily shut down until more barrels arrived. Since 1938, the US Army has been eager to equip non-combatant troops with a semi-automatic rifle, less bulky, lighter and more maneuverable than the Garand.

This is not the case because, as stated, as some contractors utilized these parts in later production pieces during the war. Numbers were issued sequentially, beginning where Some manufacturers rounded the edges at the front of barrel, a few cut them flat.

This bridge was eliminated with all M2 stocks and removed from earlier stocks later converted

and/or Ordnance inspectors assigned to a particular manufacturer as the use of the Flaming Ordnance Bomb was specific to certain manufacturers. Winchester continued this practice with their type IV M2 stocks and it became the

American Black Walnut was the most common wood used. My S' G' is serial number 1991044 and does not fit within any of the serial number ranges listed. It is possible you have an S'G' barrel that was mated to a Stan Prod. Their presence on a barrel diesel program after January 1st, 1944 (5, p.411). It simply means a P was not added at the prime contractor and the stock was not on a carbine when it was proof marked during an Ordnance rebuild operation. A few unconverted type III stocks absent the bridge have WebManufacturers and reception markings on M1 carbine stocks. During WWII most, but not all, stocks & handguards had manufacturer markings. were parkerized, the tint and texture of these parts varied. After determining that the parts appear to be of the proper vintage and coded to match the prime contractor, the finish of the metal should be considered. Early Swivels: Unmarked Late Swivels: Marked "UI" "U" -Winchester: Didn't mark them.

WebMarkings per component: -Barrel Bands -Type 1 (Early Narrow Band) -Inland: Marked "UI" "U" Or unmarked. barrel channel (bottom), Thinner wood along the right side adjacent the slide on the earlier stocks (top) Rate of Fire: M2 on full auto, 650-700rpm The serial numbers allocated to these carbines were as follows. code. Webthe total production above included carbines produced for U.S. Army Ordnance prior to the start of production, including 8 manufactured in January 1942 and 12 in February 1942. Some of these do not have the SA markings on Other larger plants did lower the price per unit further due to the increased length and size of their contracts (5).

Note: BI marked gas piston cylinders were manufactured by B & P Motor Company for Inland.

There is insufficient data to determine if every serial number between the lows and highs was duplicated or if it was random. The Carbine Collectors Club.

Wood being wood, it is subject to cracks. Here is what you need to know to have a coherent M1 at a given date. After WWII many stocks & handguards did not have a manufacturers mark. Read about the Saginaw (S.G.) carbines here: Serial number blocks assigned by the government. Throughout the course of production for the M1 Carbine, the parts to complete guns as needed were subcontracted to over 50 different to facilities and businesses that didnt usually have any prior experience in firearms manufacturing (5). These rub marks are frequently apparent when the narrow band is installed, and is a sure sign that a later vintage barrel band was on the carbine at one time. The plant had been established in 1942for the expressed purpose of building M1 Carbines by Robert W. Irwin, a furniture manufacturer, and John D. Pedersen a commercial firearms designer (5, p.141-143). This resulted in an unknown number of "presentation" carbines possibly having the same serial number as the earlier Engineering carbines.

authorization to sent an unknown quantity of receivers to Grand Rapids. Keep in mind, U.S. Barrels manufactured by Brown-Lipe-Chapin and used by Inland typically do not have the quantity present Win WW II? Early on the needs reached the point some prime Note the outer edge of the muzzle. While a competently restored carbine can sometimes be a bit difficult to spot, there are several tell-tale signs that often reveal restoration work.

The carbine went through Raritan Arsenal which is where it probably got upgraded to adjustable sites, type 3 barrel band (quality hardware), a rotary safety, and a type iv magazine catch.

Afterits success with producing the M1919A4 machine gun that beganin 1940, Plant #2 obtained a contract for 365,500 M1 Carbines on February 13, 1943(5, p. 156).

Export, PA: S.A. Duff, 1996. The adjustable rear sight came into use sometime before the T4 barrel band and some relatively late production carbines made by several makers were originally fitted with adjustable rear sights. their historical value. receiver. 9. WebSaginaw SG Markings on Receivers with Grand Rapids Serial Numbers Among the last 1000 serial numbers of a block assigned to the Grand Rapids plant, receivers manufactured in Saginaw with SG markings have been reported mixed in with S'G' marked receivers manufactured in Grand Rapids.

Examples of spare barrels proof marked with the P by the barrel manufacturer and again with the Visit our US militaria page if you are interested in rare American militaria items. The serial number was placed on the carbine receiver during the manufacturing process of the receiver, not when the carbine was finally assembled. The key parts to observe are the rear sight, bolt, stock, safety and barrel band. All Rights Reserved. Generally, the P was placed on top of the barrel approximately two inches in front of the barrel band.

Most barrels have a rounded muzzle, some barrels have a flat muzzle. Add 3% for C/C.

The stock is SG marked but does also have a C-SAA stamp, indicating it went back to an arsenal at some point. Thompson Submachine Gun. Wikipedia. The Government Free Issue Barrel Program was canceled in April 1944 as all of the prime contractors but Inland and Winchester were finishing production. This practice varied over time

For those who used them the price the *Post Reserved in case I run out of space*. Most were of the flat top variety although the rounded bolts came into use by a few makers before production ceased. However, if a carbine has all of the above parts (T4 barrel band, rotary safety, adjustable sight, parkerized bolt, etc.) The company 'Union Switch & Signal' manufactured breech cases for 'Quality Hardware'. for use with a select fire mechanism. 3 3/16" (approx.) receivers were brought back online and completed (i.e. with some barrels having only partial date markings and some having no date at all. I shaped sling cut, High Wood covers slide 'UN-QUALITY' marking: Typically these punch marks are rather deep and readily apparent. Some of the info in the charts was extracted and reproduced from the book. You certain the receiver is S'G'? Through our YouTube channel, we strive to educate and share the stories behind the artifacts we sell. The Discussion Forum also serves as a reference desk for the more advanced material that could easily overwhelm a website and is often subject to opinions that may vary

Duff, Scott A., and David C. Clark. 4 lands and grooves, shown from chamber end of the barrel.